Curse

Glasswalker · Jun 21, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Whirling Defense is good put no way is it better than monk healing.

It doesn't have to be, it has other uses; like letting you lay a trap without being interupted. The monk can still heal me -- I don't mind at all. But if the other teams ranger has it in his mind to keep me from finishing off that poor crippled W/Mo before he can stick an axe in me, healing isn't going to help much.

Falconer · Jun 22, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Well spark basically has put up the poster boy of the knee-jerk self healing is never called for crowd.

Case in point: Problem with the mesmer... kill it... or try and heal...
Gee... isn't the entire point of the game to kill the other team. Kill it... yeah that's going to be a snap. He makes it sound so TRIVIALLY easy! (but wait.. it's the other teams monks job to keep that mesmer alive... I guess that if the mesmer actually dies that monk just sucks). Or simply debuff the target and move on... yeah works great... until a coordinated team removes the hex/condition 2-3s later.

Spark basically falls into the classic trap of ultra-specialization... your job is to nuke, your job is to disrupt, your job is to heal. And well if you don't heal it's because you suck and need a better healer.

That starts to fall apart against GOOD COORDINATED TEAMS. Not your typical pick-up or join our guild we have a cape type set... A good team can look at your build within say 2 minutes of the fight... get a good idea of your skills... identify your weak point. And eliminate your crutch. (if you have 5 damage dealers reliant on 3 healers to keep them from dying...).

Yeah ether feast isn't the best heal compared to an orison with DF. Buf if the mesmer uses ether feast on you... He's A. healed himself for 120 points. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's stopped the monk from healing someone else for 80-200 points (orison to word of healing) with 5 energy he no longer has. So instead of 13 energy every 10s... that monk now only has 8 energy every 10s. (I'm in NO WAY STATING THIS IS THE BEST MOVE... if you're after better energy denial energy tap/drain will do better... but if you're having trouble as a team with the mesmer dying while doing his job... this is a halfway measure which still does energy denial while giving a reasonably powerfull healing augmentation). Also I'll point out ether feast is 10 energy for 10 energy 'stolen' and converted every 20s... while energy tap (the steal) is 5 energy for 13 energy stolen every 20s... not a huge difference there now is there.

He basically reiterates one of my points though. A hex/condition removal can help both yourself and your team. Because it basically helps you do your job without the monks help. See my comment about purge signet being usefull to both help the wa/mo as well as a way for him to save his monk.

Again I make my primary point. If in doubt, you probably shouldn't have a self heal. But it's critical to a build to identify weak points IN THE BUILD which may need some boosting. And a self-heal is one possible way in many cases to give that little bit of extra oomph to your TEAM. And avoid a 8 on 8 even matchup from turning into a 8 on 7 man advantage because one of your men is taking a dirt nap.

Phades · Jun 22, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark

Self heals suck. Aura of Restoration, are you kidding me? I'm assuming you are talking about Tombs here, and what good does a crappy 17 (1s cast) or 80 (3-5s cast) point heal help against say 4 chain lightnings doing 135 each? Or against the meteor shower doing 130 and knocking you down, or the huge damage backfire, or, or, or....

Self heals suck. If you are brining a defensive skill it better be DAMN good, (Armor of Mist/Storm Chaser is GREAT for relic runs, Obsidian Flesh prevents a ton of damage) but even when I play my monk I would tell people not to equip Aura of Restoration. It doesn't help me heal at all, its just wasting their skill slot whch might have helped us take down their offense which DOES help me heal.

I just don't get how everyone keeps thinking about 'the poor monk'. WTF? There is a reason there are different classes with different roles. If the elementalists and warriors take out an enemy damage dealer that goes a helluva lot farther than asstacular healing.

Aura of restoration at high levels softens the hurt from backfire and thats about it. For giggles i was using a ele witha high energy storage skill and one element and i was getting just over 400% per cast returned. It did alright, but lacked depth of options, but anyway... Focus fire against a ele without a few protection spells on him, ends up being a dead ele. This is very similar to just about every other job, which is why the popular opinion drifts towards damage> defense.

Yellowcard · Jun 22, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

The only thing that really matters is what are you doing that you're asking about self heals. Everyone seems like they're talking as if the monk is always alive...anybody ever think about being the last one alive? Questioning about bringing self heals is just like questioning to bring rez or not. So many people doubt rez as if they'll never be the last one to live. Self heals are just as important as dmg dealing skills and so is rez. That's part of being a balanced character. You should always plan ahead that you could be the last one to live and you can do a lot with 4-5 main skills, a self heal and maybe a target heal, along with rez. Some of the best players I know and have seen use 2-3 main attack skills, a good stance if not more, a defensive skill, a healing skill and rez. Being totally reliant on someone else is not possible with all the different possiblities of anybody dying unexpected. Not everything works as planned...

Yellowcard · Jun 22, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Also, all res skills have their bonuses and bads. Restore life you have to be standing over their corpse...good luck trying to rez when youre the last one alive and the group's corpses are being camped...resurrect has range...rebirth also is nice even if it causes exhaustion. Not one is always better then the other...just depends on the situation.

Thom · Jun 22, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I'm a big fan of decentralizing healing, especially low-monk/no-monk builds. With 3 full time monks you are devoting 24/64 or 37% of your build devoted to defensive activities (including removals). If you went with a low-monk system where you had people averaging 2 defenses (everything from throw dirt to orison to hex removals) and a single monk focused on self heal and some spike prevention, you have a build with 22/64 or 34% skills defensive potentially more "hard targets" and base damage dealers. That is to say you will have higher average armor and more characters who will be delivering base damage(weapon/spamming). Another alternative is 2 half-healers/removers with others averaging 2 defenses wth 20 or 34% skills defensive. Finally you have various no-monk builds where defense skills average a little less than 3, but damage control is totally decentralized.

There is reason why a standard 3 monk build dominates. It is the easiest build to run and requires the least amount of organization. You could build endurance builds with up to 50% defense (4 monks or equivalent) and you are going to be very difficult to kill, but your going to be relying on slower damage and building opponents DP. You could also run a pure damage build with no defense that simply attempts to outpace the opponents killing. Your most efficient healing is going to come from the Monk, but as teams get better and better at taking down a standard three monk structure teams may need to move to suboptimal skills for an optimal strategy.

Other problems of relying on 3 healers for defense is that you are limited in movement. As efficient as focus fire is when you are taking down a well supported character, it is not always the quickest way to take down multiple targets which can be extremely useful. The best example is distracting while ganking a priest or running an item while slowing the opponent. These are the high stress situations in a build with 5 damage dealer builds. Most builds already have some self-defense built into a ganking or running character which brings a teams total defense up to levels of 26 or 27/64. If you get the number of damage dealers(including shutdown characters) to 6 or 7 you begin to be able to focus fire two seperate targets and overload monk groups.

Back to the main point. Self heals allows for a diversity of strategic options that don't simply reduce to Troll Ungent<Healing breeze since troll has a longer cast time and is only a self heal (and ignoring the fact that it is cheaper and is slightly more powerful). This type of logic makes no sense when you are planning to play a character that will be well out of your healers range most of the time chasing enemy monks or taking advantage of high ground. As is the test with all skills, know your playing style and be willing to drop a skill that you find you are rarely using.

Metavirulent · Jun 22, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Yellowcard, don't double post and if you do, try to think first, it should help.
First of all, if you are the last one alive and all enemies are dead, then you have won by definition.

No, seriously, if it as an 8v8 (heck even in a 4v4) and you are the last one alive on your team then ugh, your self healing will not exactly save the situation, don't you think? In this case, something already went majorly wrong before (maybe your self-healing was taking away some of your punch, who knows).

Spark · Jun 22, 2005, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Falconer: Some very good points. I'll admit I got sidetracked by individual examples, and lost the point. I was thinking that the situation was where you had your standard 3 monks AND you want everyone to carry their own healing as well. As you stated, your are already devoting a lot of resources to healing so I saw devoting slots of the remaining 5 as rather wasteful.

There is also the semantics of self heal vs self defense. For example, for Elementalist you have Aura of Restoration for self heal (Puke?) but for self defense we have multiple armors (Earth, Mist, Kinetic), wards (Benefits the group too!), and even some debuff condition causing spells.

Looking at this example, we can see that some classes have absolute ass for self heals, but some great options for overall defense. What this means is they can lessen the burden of your healers, but you are still dependent on someone using monk spells to get rid of that damage that you will build up. Now if everyone picked up /Mo they could in theory all act as damage and healing. Is this better than the specialized strategy? I don't have the experience to say.

As for the specialized strategy, it is not weak in and of itself. You say coordinated people can identify weaknesses in builds (Say, depending on 3 healers), but there are a couple things that seem to be assumed here. Either:

A) Their build does not have a weakness.
B) You did not spot their weakness.

In either case the team will most obviously (and deservedly) win. However, if this thread is talking about using self heals to cover this said weakness, do you lose any offensive power from this? What sacrifice do you make for self healing? Do you remove primary healers to make up for the fact that when someone is under fire, he is taking time away from his target to heal himself? Are passive heals strong enough to keep someone alive who is under focus fire?

Glasswalker · Jul 07, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metavirulent

No, seriously, if it as an 8v8 (heck even in a 4v4) and you are the last one alive on your team then ugh, your self healing will not exactly save the situation, don't you think?

Someone shoot me for keeping this thread alive, but I've been on vacation and missed a couple posts.

There are games when your team obviously dominates the other. There are times when they dominate you.

But I would say 65%+ games that I have played, the teams are pretty well balanced, and it comes down to 1v1, or 1v2. I would agree with you if it were always 4v1 or 8v1, but that simply isn't the case. Taking a second or two out of hitting the enemy while you cast a Healing Breeze or Troll Unguent, or whatever (especially if they are suffering from some conditions...), can make the difference between a long drawn-out loss, or a long drawn-out win. It's only a few seconds. And if the other team took your advice, and they aren't healing, you are one up on them.

Nash · Jul 07, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

No, self-heals are horrible. Competitive players have enough of a hassle trying to get people to stop using self-heal without people popping up posting pseudo-credible topics promoting them.

Falconer · Jul 07, 2005, 02:07 AM // 02:07

We love you too Nash... your methods of stating so are insulting... pseudo-credible... really. Did you even read the original post? And knock it off with the silly 'competitive' players bit. There's a lot of good and bad players out there and not all 'competitive' players agree. So don't advance yourself as a self-appointed spokesman.

Self-heals have a place... but for the LARGE majority of people in the current build configs it's not there. So they shouldn't use them. But to say that they never have a place is to not even make a 'pseudo-credible' argument. It's to make no argument at all.

Nash · Jul 07, 2005, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I'm just being blunt. Self-healing is a wasteful scrub behavior.
I've stated why self-healing is shitty here.

I don't feel the need to restate that all over again. It's there, read it, disagree if you want. I'm offering my input, take it or leave it. After all, it's not my problem if you lose, is it?

Spark · Jul 07, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

You can call it blunt Nash, but it's still rude. Just use respectful language so people can argue with your ideas, and not you.

As for those supporting self healing, the circumstances can definately change certain things and they were never set.

In 4v4 random arena? You might not even get a monk so it's a pretty good idea.

LFG in Tombs? It won't make or break the team, and they arn't planning on you having self healing so it should be covered. (I assumed this thread was targeted towards tombs builds)

Random off the wall Guild build? Well now if it calls for it, go ahead.

However what I think the other anti self healers (myself included) are talking about is general advice. If a newbie wanders in looking for tombs builds, and wants to know if he should bring Troll Unguent or Aura of Restoration, we can give him a resounding 'No'. This is general advice that is good to adhear to until you can think of your own builds more readily.

You started this thread talking about people spreading information about self healing sucking. The only ones who would really be affected are those who are new and looking for help and advice. And to be fair, telling them that self healing sucks is quite valid. Until they learn more about PvP and delve deeper in strategy in playskill, it won't make a difference. Once they become more capable they will make their own decisions, and they can value skills such as self healing on their own. Until then, giving broad generalizations that are not always true is probably better to get them started.

Nash · Jul 07, 2005, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I didn't think I was being very rude. I posted what I think about this topic, in all honesty. If I had worded it slighty different, still saying the exact same thing, noone would have complained. Personally though, I care more about what you say and not how.

Yamat · Jul 07, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Aura of Restoration - heals up to 350% of the mana cost of spells.

One basic piece missing from this is the fact Aura of Restoration lasts 60 seconds. You can cast Flare 10 times in 60 seconds, which will heal for 10 times 17, or 170 health. Not great, I know, but better than nothing, and it means the Healer can ignore you for a couple of seconds more, plus its a dummy enchantment that stops you losing elemental attunment or something. None too shabby...

ICURADik · Jul 07, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Aura of restoration should only be used in combination with Etheral Renewal and Dwayna's Kiss. Otherwise it's practically useless.

Phades · Jul 07, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Aura of restoration should only be used in combination with Etheral Renewal and Dwayna's Kiss. Otherwise it's practically useless.

Then again going with that route, you must also assume that an attunement is also being used. So if res is also in the bar, that leaves 4 spots for offensive spells and typically only air cycles fast enough to support that few number of spells.

ICURADik · Jul 08, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Then again going with that route, you must also assume that an attunement is also being used. So if res is also in the bar, that leaves 4 spots for offensive spells and typically only air cycles fast enough to support that few number of spells.

I meant the monk is running dwayna's kiss...

entropy · Jul 08, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

It all depends on the situation your in. You have to create a build that centers around an idea. If ur high dmg output like an ele then you should probably stay far back around the monks not chasing the target everywhere and as you take so much dmg it pretty useless to take self heals especially in tombs. But in any 4vs4 pvp arena especially random you definetly should. In those arena's most of the time you dont have a monk. Overall though I believe its better to save yourself the dmg in the first place so that the monk never has to heal you. For example my W/E takes armor of earth and sprint to counteract that. If theres a monk I can last about the entire round in the competition arena unless the monk is dead. With the armor I the extra armor of earth that adds it doesnt take much to heal me in the first place.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 08, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

What gets me is how some of you are so worked up and angry at the suggestion of people even using self heals. How dare we?!!

I'm not even going to argue whether it's a good tactic or not, but to actually get rude and insulting over a playstyle/strategy is just silly. I mean wow.

You can still give advice if you want but if you're just going to degrade and put down others in the process then it's not really giving advice. You're just trying to prove yourself right instead of trying to help others.